Boy Scouts Anti Gay Policy
To The Greater St. Louis Area Council Advancement Committee:
It is with great pleasure that I write a letter of recommendation for XXXX. XXXX has been a shadow for my nine-year-old special needs son, Devlin McCoy for the last year. First, for soccer last fall and currently, for basketball. Devlin has autism, oppositional defiant disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder and a seizure disorder. This is to say that my son is not an easy child and requires heightened maturity and understanding in order to communicate effectively.
XXXX has handled Devlin and his “quirks” with respect, patience and humility at all times. XXXX not only steps in when Devlin needs help, but I have been impressed with XXXX’s attitude and self-reliance to assist Devlin before Devlin’s behavior escalates. XXXX exemplifies all those qualities that Scout Law demands: loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
XXXX also exemplifies another quality that The Boy Scouts of America do not currently embrace: tolerance. If, or when, the Boy Scouts of America adopt a policy of non-discrimination and tolerance towards the gay community, XXXX is ahead of the curve. He has proved so in all his dealings with my undeniably “different” son.
Annonymous: If “…orientation is no one’s business but your own…”, why the need for your GSA, where one’s orientation is a membership requirement. How exactly are you going to administer “the test”? Scratch ‘n sniff? Pee test? And, is it a pass fail/One-size-fits-all, or not? If you get a “C” what happens? C, then you choose, C-, you got to the “straight” group, C+ to the Gay Scouts? Hummm
All I know is I can’t wait to purchase a Gay Scout fritta, and can you imagaine the wrapping paper fundraiser choices? FABULOUS!!! Gooooo Gay Scouts!
Anonymous – I have no need for a GSA. Orientation is no one’s business. A GSA would be for those who want to advertise their orientation and promote their lifestyle. An orientation requirement is unnecessary as you’d presume the only people joining an organization that serves the wants and needs of the gay community, would be gay men and boys.
Testing for “authenticity” would be unnecessary. If someone said they were gay, I wouldn’t have any reason to disbelieve them. There is no measure of gayness. You either are or your not.
Thanks for your viewpoint. While I disagree with most of what you said, I do not believe orientation should be kept private or hidden. Hiding something so basic to your identity only propagates shame and stigma. When you hide a fundamental quality about yourself that identifies you as different, you are not being honest with the world. The world should make room for all differences, not crowd them into one tent, away from the rest.
Married people are in your face every day with their wedding rings and are hopefully projecting their preference only to have sex with their spouse. Gay people aren’t any more sexual and in your face than Pamela Anderson, but no one seems to mind seeing Pam’s enormous hooters. Talk about in your face!
Boys and girls sharing close quarters is not about sex. It’s about modesty. Do you really think if you put boys and girls into a space that an orgy will break out? The only argument you seem to be making is that gay people are sex fiends from whom we need to protect ourselves. Gay people are a lot more than what they do in the bedroom. Not all gay men want to have sex with every man they see. Trust me, most straight men aren’t dressed or groomed well enough for a gay man to want to have sex with him.
In Plessy v. Ferguson 163 U.S. 537, 539 (1896). the Supreme Court decided that separate “but equal” was fine, and so refused to overturn blatantly unconstitutional Jim Crow laws for generations. Clearly, the Court was not on the right side of history. I don’t think those who oppose equal rights for gay people are either. After we gain equality for our gay brothers and sisters I am hopeful we can champion other disenfranchised groups, like the learning disabled and the mentally ill.
Jennifer – The hour is late and it’s time for bed, but I will address your today’s statement tomorrow. Good night.
You stated “I do not believe orientation should be kept private or hidden. Hiding something so basic to your identity only propagates shame and stigma. When you hide a fundamental quality about yourself that identifies you as different, you are not being honest with the world.”
My response: Since when is your sexual orientation your identity? My heterosexuality doesn’t define me. The way gays carry on you’d think that homosexuality is the only thing that defines them. I don’t feel ashamed not publicizing my sexuality.
And since when has orientation ever been thought of as a quality? How is that a quality? And what makes gay people think the world has any interest in their sexuality?
You said: “Married people are in your face every day with their wedding rings and are hopefully projecting their preference only to have sex with their spouse.”
My response: Forgive me for snickering but during the course of any day I don’t see or think any thing of people’s wedding rings. You completely lost me with the “hopefully projecting their preference only to have sex with their spouse” thing. What’s that got to do with in your face?
Let me give you a couple examples of what I mean by “in your face”. Remember Chick-fil-A? When a Pennsylvania outlet agreed to provide some of its chicken sandwiches for an upcoming marriage seminar run by one of the state’s leading anti-gay marriage organizations, a fire storm erupted within the gay community.
Chick-fil-A has long-been transparent about its Christian values. The gays called for a boycott and staged protests at outlets which is their right. There was a call for gay activity outside restaurants; there was even vandalism. This is in your face.
The only thing the gay community gained from this was to shoot themselves in the foot. Sales spiked. You know why? Because a lot of people including myself were outraged that the gay community would try to persecute Chick-fil-A for it’s religious beliefs. Chick-fil-A had not discriminated against anyone. I had never been to Chick-fil-A before that occurrence.
For another example, last year there were some gays who wanted to be spotlighted on the stadium’s “kiss cam”. And they made a stink about it. The only reason they wanted to be on the kiss cam is that they wanted everyone to see two gays kissing. Hey look at us, we’re gay and we’re kissing! Good grief. That is in your face.
You stated: “Boys and girls sharing close quarters is not about sex. It’s about modesty. Do you really think if you put boys and girls into a space that an orgy will break out?”
My response: Jennifer, of course I don’t think an orgy would break out. Not allowing boys and girls in certain close quarters situations is to prevent the possibility of hanky panky (sex). You lose your modesty pretty quick when things start to simmer.
Next: Boy Scouts of America v. Dale, 530 U.S. 640 (2000)
You state: “Since when is your sexual orientation your identity? My heterosexuality doesn’t define me. The way gays carry on you’d think that homosexuality is the only thing that defines them. I don’t feel ashamed not publicizing my sexuality.
And since when has orientation ever been thought of as a quality? How is that a quality? And what makes gay people think the world has any interest in their sexuality?”
Sexual orientation and gender identity aren’t the same the same thing. Who you’re sexually attracted to and how you present yourself are two separate things.
What behavior do “gays” engage in that would lead you to believe that is the only thing that defines them? Is it that you’re seeing two men engage in anal intercourse or oral sex in public? Or is your issue that their actions are not gender conforming, i.e., they’re acting like “sissies”?
Is it possible that when you see two gender noncorforming men, which leads you to believe they are gay, that your mind immediately goes to the sex acts you believe them to be engaging in, and that’s what you find offputting?
PS – I’m using an anonymous posting because I don’t have an account but I sign my name. What’s yours?
I’ll answer your last question first. I don’t have an account either and I don’t sign my name because I’m a recognizable public figure. My opinions are my own and who I am has no bearing on the discussion.
You stated: “Sexual orientation and gender identity aren’t the same the same thing. Who you’re sexually attracted to and how you present yourself are two separate things.”
My response: Believe it or not, I can watch and listen to a man for a very brief time, and 9 times out of 10 I know if they’re gay or not. This falls under “how you present yourself”. So based on the presentation, you know who they’re sexually attracted to.
You stated: ‘What behavior do “gays” engage in that would lead you to believe that is the only thing that defines them?”
My response: Have you ever seen a gay parade Bruce? I’ve only seen it on TV or the internet. All I’ll say about that is, it certainly leaves a lasting impression in your mind.
You stated: “Is it possible that when you see two gender nonconforming men, which leads you to believe they are gay, that your mind immediately goes to the sex acts you believe them to be engaging in.”
My response: When I see two gender nonconforming men, my mind immediately goes to that “lasting impression” I just mentioned.
Don’t misunderstand me Bruce. I feel no malice toward gays. Let’s just say it’s not my cup of tea.
It’s not my cup of tea either, but then neither am I turned on by severely obese men, stupid men or ones who think because they have more money then common sense and think that they are god’s gift to women. And I can pick them out quickly too. So stating you have great gaydar is about one of the most bigoted, stupid things I have heard.
Everyone has a preference as to what appeals to them- blondes, skinny, big booties, short, tall, red-haired, intelligence, blue eyes, dick or pussy or both- which is what makes us who we are. If this world is going to survive, we have to learn to live with it. Even stating that you feel no malice, I will bet that when your gaydar “kicks in”, you do make decisions based on that. All things being equal, look at the past.
Ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! The prize goes to ev for being the first to digress into incivility. With hot button issues some one always does. If you’re not already sitting ev, do so and take a deep breath; hold it; now let it out slowly. Now do it again.
You stated: “It’s not my cup of tea either, but then neither am I turned on by severely obese men, stupid men or ones who think because they have more money then common sense and think that they are god’s gift to women. And I can pick them out quickly too. So stating you have great gaydar is about one of the most bigoted, stupid things I have heard.”
My response: I re-read what I said and I was unable to find the part where I allegedly said I had “great gaydar”. What I said was “I can watch and listen to a man for a very brief time, and 9 times out of 10 I know if they’re gay or not”.
It’s said that all men are created equal. Apparently that’s not true because if you cant, then you’re sense of observation is somewhat impoverished. At least you know a severely obese man when you see one. That’s a start.
Since by your own admission you can pick out obese, stupid, and men who think they’re God’s gift to women, that would make you bigoted and stupid as well. The pot calling the kettle black. What I said was a fact. It was neither bigoted nor stupid. Just the facts ma’am.
You stated: “Everyone has a preference as to what appeals to them- blondes, skinny, big booties, short, tall, red-haired, intelligence, blue eyes, dick or pussy or both”.
My response: Did you just say “pussy”? Now you’ve got me turned on. :)~ So you like to talk dirty eh? Instead of saying “dick” you could have said penis or tally wacker. In place of “pussy” you might have said vagina or love tunnel. Naughty ev.
You stated: “I will bet that when your gaydar “kicks in”, you do make decisions based on that”.
My response: Just a word of wisdom….don’t bet what you can’t afford to lose. My “gaydar doesn’t “kick in”. My sense of observation runs 24/7. Why don’t you enlighten me as to what kind of decisions I could possibly make when I see someone who’s gay.
Anonymous- Your comments are too numerous to address in the time I have, so I will address as many as I can.
No need to get upset about having a great gaydar. No one is calling you names, Anonymous. What you said, that “I can watch and listen to a man for a very brief time, and 9 times out of 10 I know if they’re gay or not”. That is the definition of “gaydar”. I understand your point that you have it engaged 24/7. Best to sleep with one eye open.
With respect to your question “Why don’t you enlighten me as to what kind of decisions I could possibly make when I see someone who’s gay.”, I have many responses. As a “recognizable public figure” you may have the authority to hire or fire employees. You may decide not to patron a restaurant owned by a gay person. You could decide not to admit a scout to the BSA if he was gay. Or you could simply decide to shun someone you perceived with your keen awareness as being gay.
Sexual orientation is completely basic to one’s identity. When people describe themselves in personal ads they advise whether they are caucasian or other, married or single, female or male, gay or straight. It is basic information.
Of course you snickered about my comment about not thinking a thing about men and women wearing wedding rings. The reason you don’t think about it is because you have accepted it as normal. There was a time that inter-racial couples weren’t allowed to marry. I hope that you don’t think a thing about seeing inter-racial couples wearing rings either.
Did you really just say “hanky-panky” and then clarify it by putting “sex” in parenthetical?
There is no simply answer as to why we each feel as we do about the issue. I asked my eleven year old daughter what she thought about God’s attitude about gay people, She said that she didn’t think that God would create someone as gay and then punish them for being what he created. I think it boils down the the fact that I don’t think God is against gay people. Religion, perhaps, but not God. At least not my God. So with my premise that I don’t think being gay is contrary to God, I will never understand why gay people shouldn’t have all the rights and privileges as straight people.
Hello Jennifer. I wasn’t upset about the “gaydar” reference. Gaydar is short for gay radar. It was meant to be sarcastic. When ev said my statement was bigoted and stupid, she in effect was saying I was bigoted and stupid. That didn’t upset me either.
There will always be those who are unable to remain civil in discussing hot button issues. All it does is cast an unfavorable light on them. A gay gentleman once said to me “I hope you die sooner than later”, and “I hope you get cancer”. Nice huh? Simply because we didn’t agree.
I would have preferred ev say something more intelligent like asking me how I can make that identification. I would have told her there are several factors that come into play.
A strong factor would be the manner in which they speak. It’s a dead give away. It’s not something I can describe in text, but you may know what I’m talking about non the less. I’ve never heard a straight man speak that way.
Another is the use of feminine gestures. This next one is weak by itself but in conjunction with the others, it strengthens the ID. They’re gentle/soft, and I do realize that a boy/man can be gentle without being gay. That’s why I called it weak by itself. Straight men/boys tend to have an aggressive edge.
In fewer cases I’ve seen gay men who “swish” like a woman when they walk. All of the factors I’ve mentioned don’t need to be present at once. Just in some combination to varying degrees.
You stated: “With respect to your question “Why don’t you enlighten me as to what kind of decisions I could possibly make when I see someone who’s gay.”, I have many responses.”
My response: I’ve previously stated several times I feel no malice towards gays. Yet without any evidence, ev would bet that I would make decisions based on a person’s orientation. Ev is wrong. Orientation plays no part in hiring or firing decisions, nor in determining if I’ll patronize a business. Nor would I shun someone who I perceive “with my keen awareness” as you put it, as being gay.
I couldn’t care less what you do behind closed doors. That’s your business. And you can rest easy that I have no more influence than you do with the Boy Scouts or the Church.
You stated: “I hope that you don’t think a thing about seeing inter-racial couples wearing rings either”.
My response: I don’t think any thing about any couple who wears wedding rings (including gays).
You stated “Did you really just say “hanky-panky” and then clarify it by putting “sex” in parenthetical?”
My response: I certainly did. You’re not going to quibble about meaning like Bill Clinton did are you? He got a BJ from Monica Lewinsky and didn’t considerate it as having sex. That’s so funny!!
You stated: “I don’t think God is against gay people”. “I don’t think being gay is contrary to God, I will never understand why gay people shouldn’t have all the rights and privileges as straight people.”
My response: God hates sin; not the sinner. The only reason I’ve ever heard gays give as to why they want the right to marry is so they can enjoy all the rights and privileges as heterosexual couples.
I support civil unions for gays which would give them all the rights and privileges as heterosexual couples. Legally it would be a civil union. They can call it a marriage if they like. They can call it anything they want. But it would not be the same as the sacrament of marriage as in being joined together by God, this man and this woman.
God created Adam and Eve so they could be fruitful and multiply. Go forth and populate the earth. If God had created Adam and Steve instead, well they would still be trying to figure it out.
Sorry Anonymous,I do disagree. I have a gay son. He has never started any sentence for anything with “Hi, I’m gay and I want…”. His father is retired military. He dealt with gays way back before there was a don’t ask, don’t tell. He didn’t care as long as they did their jobs the right way.
As for the BSA, I grew up with a neighbor who’s sons were both in the Scouts and he was heavily involved with the troops for years. He was also arrested, convicted and served time as a Pedophile. He was married. It went on for years because they kept covering it up until they couldn’t any more. But he’s not “gay”, so that’s ok by the BSA, correct?
I am an Elk of many years. And a woman. The Elks were told years ago that if they didn’t start to admit women, they would be on the hot seat of litigation. They wised up. We now have members who are gay, black (and yes, there are still black only Elks Lodges, mainly because of where they are located, not because of racial divides) and lots of women who are there to serve when the men have not been.
Like the Elks, the BSA needs to stop teaching one thing and practicing another. Get off their bigoted tree stumps and learn to live in an entirely new world, that is slowly learning to change. Don’t be at the back of the pack, but at the forefront, leading the new generation into it.
And I’m not ashamed to have my name attached to this.
Seems we have something in common. You have a gay son and I had a gay brother. He too never started any sentence for anything with “Hi, I’m gay and I want…”. How would anyone know your son was gay unless he makes a public pronouncement, or acts like it? Orientation is no one’s business but your own.
Your husband’s a good man and thank you for his service. “He didn’t care as long as they did their jobs the right way.” Would your husband feel the same way if they had flaunted their gayness while doing their job the right way? I’ll bet you a dime to a donut it would have created a hostile work environment.
Now for your neighbor, but first I’ll have to clear something up. Your neighbor was gay. Males who like underage females are pedophiles. Males who like males are gay. Males who like under age males are gay pedophiles.
Just because your neighbor was married to a woman and had two son’s, doesn’t mean he’s not gay. He was a gay who wasn’t comfortable with himself, even loathed himself. He married and did the family thing so he could deny to himself that he was gay. Testosterone being what it is, he gave in to his sexuality and started diddling young boys in secret.
The BSA is not bigoted nor do they teach one thing and practice another. “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.” For 150 years religious belief has played a large part in scouting. I’m not a Bible scholar and I can’t just pull scripture out of my head, but I have seen the scripture that says that it is an abomination in God’s eyes for two men to lay together.
I’ve seen other passages which states essentially the same thing. What gay activists are doing is trying to force the BSA to violate their own religions beliefs and principles.
That’s interesting ev. You’re an Elk and my grandmother was a Moose. I don’t believe an entirely new world is necessarily a better world.
You ask: How would anyone know your son was gay unless he makes a public pronouncement, or acts like it? Orientation is no one’s business but your own.”
So, you and I attend a social function and you bring your wife. If I bring my partner, does this mean that I am making a “public pronouncement”? If so, how do I get around it? Tell him he can’t come or just introduce him as my “friend”?
You make a good point Bruce. I assumed ev’s son was a younger boy. I’ve been speaking about this situation with the BSA, so the example you gave really wouldn’t apply as you’re not wanting to join an organization that holds religious beliefs and principles which are contrary to gay orientation.
No, my son, technically my step-son, who is only a few years younger than I, is an adult. It took him years to be comfortable with being gay because he comes from a big, Irish Catholic family. As someone (myself) who has no religious affiliation at all, I flat out let him know I didn’t care and we bonded over that. He finally realized that his family didn’t care either and wouldn’t push him away. Again, because of religious beliefs and affiliations. It’s why I no longer associate myself with any type of organized religion- they are the biggest purveyors of bigotry and discrimination. Hypocrisy reigns supreme. “Love your fellow man as you love yourself”. Unless they are gay, then shun them. “Do unto others…” Unless they don’t meet your guidelines.
Recently, I introduced my husband to a friend of mine and his husband. He didn’t have a fit. At his age, I found out even he can relearn the things he was taught.
I grew up watching racial divides fall. I am appreciating the fact that I can see through adult eyes the struggle that entailed as I watch the same divides fall for gays. As a woman, I dealt with my own bigotry over the years, including in the military. And yes, if they had been blatant about it while my husband was in the Army, they most likely would have been court- martialed and drummed out. There would have been no other choice. But the ones who were there, didn’t go chasing others in the foxholes. They fought and died just like everyone else- for our rights.
I was fortunate growing up. My parents never cared about anyone’s race, religion or sexual orientation. When college friends were thrown out of their own families for being gay, they were always welcome in our home. When our neighborhood had it’s first black family move in (and our town only had 2 or 3 black families), everyone was in an uproar. Property values were going to go down. Crime would go up. No matter we lived out in the middle of nowhere, 5 miles from town and almost everyone (except my family) worked for GE. When they moved in, dad went down there with a huge basket of fresh food from the farm and an open hand. Days later when our neighbor’s brother came to visit, he drove up in his Rolls Royce Silver Cloud. Shut everyone up.
The long and the short of it- accept people for who they are. I can guarantee that there are people out there who judge you and find you wanting just as you do to others.
Bruce- I love your example. It’s right to the point.
Jennifer- So let’s talk about the issue. You say you don’t agree with what I’ve said, yet you’ve not said what that is. Basically what I’ve said is this: 1) The Boy Scouts is not a sexual organization. There is no place in scouts for sex. Agree or not agree?
Your orientation is your own private business that you keep to yourself. Agree or not agree?
There is no legitimate reason for gay kids to making public proclamations as to their orientation. Agree or not agree?
For the most part boys are sexually attracted to girls. This is why in certain close quarter situations they are not allowed to be together. Agree or not agree?
Boys who are sexually attracted to boys should not be, for the very same reason, allowed to be in certain close quarter situations with other boys. Agree or not agree and why?
What say you?
Anonymous- Thanks for your candor. Although I don’t agree with you, I am heartened that reasonable people are talking about the issue. Thanks for your comment!
Many people are missing the point. First let me start out by saying I have nothing against gays. I wouldn’t have a problem with a gay neighbor, co-worker, or relative.
The Supreme Court didn’t view the BSA as being discriminatory. It ruled in 2000 that the organization was within it’s right to exclude from their membership, anyone who would not agree to live by the moral beliefs and principles of the Boy Scouts.
I was a Boy Scout in my youth. Sexual orientation never came up as an issue. It’s not a sexual organization. Sexual orientation is nobody’s business but your own. The problem is that gays make their orientation every ones business. They’re in your face with it. They want to force you to accept something that may be contrary to your own religious beliefs.
Orientation is no ones business but your own. Here are a few things you just don’t do and is not normal behavior: 1) Hello, I’d like to apply for a job and oh, by the way, I’m gay. 2) Hello, I’m gay and I’d like to join the Boy Scouts. And for the transgendered: 3) Hi, my name is Bob and I used to be a girl. Catch my drift?
Would you like to venture a guess as to why you wouldn’t co-mingle boys and girls together in certain close quarter activities such as camping? It’s for the same reason you shouldn’t allow boys who like boys to co-mingle with straight boys in the same situation. It’s not fair to the straight boys. Would you set aside tents just for gay boys? Not a good idea either. Scouting is not about sex. There is no reason the subject should ever come up.
If gays want to be scouts they can keep their business to themselves, or they can start their own organization; Gay Scouts of America (GSA).
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